Is it possible to use technology to tread the line between the ephemeral and the permanent? How can AR bring a picture to life, or give a dance piece a new sense of place? Can VR ever match the immediacy of the live experience?
We tackle all these questions and more, as we welcome Tom Dale and John Ross into the voidspace, to talk about their new project, In:Scape AR, how new technologies can bring fresh types of interactivity into contemporary dance, and the importance of staying true to your creative vision.
voidspace:
Thank you so much, both of you for joining me in the voidspace. Let’s start by asking a little but about who you are and what you do.
Tom Dale:
I’m a choreographer/ director and create touring performance work with my company, Tom Dale Company. I’ve been making dance and theatrical experiences for a long time! John and I came together for the first time about ten years ago, working on a piece for TDC called Refugees of the Septic Heart, a dance theatre piece that we created with an amazing electronic musician called Shackleton. It was an abstract narrative piece, with a nod to an imminent apocalypse, or a big change that’s coming or “the end of times”. That was back in 2013, ahead of the curve and Shackleton made a lot of the music back in 2009/10 but it takes a long time to get the funds together an all to create a touring dance piece.
Our practises are quite separate from each other, but we’ve come together now and again over the course of the last ten years. Now, we have come together to investigate a new project – Inscape AR We’re in research this week, investigating creating a series of augmented reality photographs for it.
voidspace:
You say that you come together quite infrequently. How does that collaboration work for you?
Tom Dale:
Speaking for myself, I work in a much abstract way to evoke and create narrative, or meaning, or whatever it is that makes the experience resonate for audiences. John comes from more of a theatrical background, and can create narrative more dramatically and theatrically.
John Ross:
I think there’s an understanding between us, because I initially started as a dancer with Tom in 2011. Tom worked with me on my graduation piece at The Place, that’s when we first met.
As a practitioner, I’ve been influenced by Tom in the way that he makes work, and also by his language style. That set me up, throughout my whole career, and that’s never really left me.
I trained as an actor before I trained as a dancer, and I ended up being in companies that were more theatrically based, more involved in dance theatre: Gecko, Punchdrunk, Jasmin Vardimon Company, DV8.
voidspace:
Bringing that abstraction and that narrative together. It sounds like it could have quite interesting repercussions.
Tell me then a bit more about In:Scape AR. How are you planning to integrate an augmented reality element into it?
Tom Dale:
I first heard this poem – Fox Running, by Ken Smith – and it’s a long 30-minute loping narrative and part rant. I heard it when I was doing a late-night drive back from a performance, about six years ago. It was an intense kind of drive, really interesting. The way that he reads his own poem, it’s really heartfelt and intense.
And it just resonated with me so much, as an artist living in London for 17 years. On the edge of no money, always having to hustle to make ends meet, but being an artist at the same time and having your fingers in lots of different pies. We’ve talked loads about our experiences, about living in London and how you learn to adapt to London, and you learn to navigate it very fast. You navigate not only all the streets, the subways, the trains, the buses, so that you can get about faster than anyone else, but you also navigate the hidden rules, and the languages, and the way people need to be with each other, and everything that you need to do to get by.
That’s what this character does in the poem. He’s on the edge, but he’s also learning London like the back of his hand, and he’s morphing into this fox character. It’s got this desperate energy to it, but it’s also got this real human search for warmth and comfort, and that need for connection. It’s a multiplicity of ideas converging in this maelstrom of a poem, that navigates all over London.
It resonated with me so much, and I thought that there was a way to create an artistic project where we can use the poetry of movement as well as poetry of language. I think John and I have a shared sensibility for music, and so we thought that by combining the words, the narratives and our shared sensibilities for music and movement language, we could come up with a good project.
Part of the project is going to be to create a series of augmented reality photographs of urban city landscapes, but that photograph will act as a portal to a piece of dance film. This is what I am calling an “inscape”, an expression of the inner nature or essence of a place or thing. When you look at the photo through a device, it turns into a piece of choreography, and it becomes a dance film, that filmed in that specific location in the city. We’re working out the processes at the moment, getting involved in the content. It’s first week of r&d this week, working with two dancers, doing a bit of on location shooting, until 9pm, out in the rain.
We’re just throwing ourselves into it, basically, because you only really learn by chucking yourself in, having a mess around.
voidspace:
I think it’s really interesting that your experience of that poem was first in performance as well, and in motion. The fact that you were on a journey at the time that you were listening to it.
Tom Dale:
If I’d have been in a room with 100 people, my experience of it would have been completely different. But I was on my own, driving through the country lanes on my way back home from a show, and just giving it my full attention, that let me experience something in it.
voidspace:
What made you decided that AR was something that would really add this piece?
Tom Dale:
We thought that this could be a good way to r&d some of the themes and concepts, and at the same time come up with an artefact or a product that we can share with people, to get them excited about the project, show them what we’re doing, share with people etc. I’ve got a real love for urban landscape photography, and there’s this music that we want to use with it.
This is an attempt to push that along and see if all of the elements come together and work, and at the same time create a different way for people to experience dance. Because I think there’s a lot of people who would really love what we do, but don’t necessarily go to the venues that we might perform at. So, this is a different way to reach different audiences, with an artefact that won’t just disappear as soon as we disappear.
As theatre performers and dance performers, we create moments in time for people to experience. It’s live and then it’s gone and if you weren’t there you missed it. But if we create these photographs, it will always be there for different people to experience. And so, we can open up what we do a little bit more, in a different way, to different people.
John Ross:
Because we have a shared love for music, we’re saying that we can have artists create this. It could be one song that they create, and then for the rest of time, this song exists and plays and is always there. Just as Tom said about theatre-making – it’s just a moment in time, and then all of a sudden it’s gone or forgotten about. We were questioning that: if we can create something that can be kept in time.
voidspace:
How is what you’re doing here different to just creating a recording of the dance piece?
John Ross:
Currently, we have portals which open the photograph, and bring it to life, so the landscape of the photograph is the landscape that you end up in.
For example, it could be just a static shot, a space that then comes to life, and movement happens. We’re also looking at dynamic shots. The question is, how do we transport you further into that photograph?
Or it can take you through that space, and end up in another space. We’re also questioning, at the moment, can it be a portal into a whole other space? Or, looking it in the narrative sense, if somone was in the space of, say, a car park, could they then fall into the subconscious, of his mind’s eye, in that space? Or could it turn into something else, like a black void or something?
There’s lots of avenues that that can open. We have an idea that we could do something with photographs, with flyers, that we could do that in an introduction.
voidspace:
How far have you got working out the technology side of it?
Tom Dale:
We’ve done a proof of concept, and it works brilliantly. I think the technology to do this has been out there for probably about ten years. I just don’t know if people have really been doing it. I don’t think I’ve seen it in the dance world. I don’t know why we haven’t seen it, but we haven’t. But the technology has definitely been available for a while.
We like to try out working with different and new technologies, to see how they can open up different ways of working.
voidspace:
Tell me a bit more about that.
Tom Dale:
As contemporary dance artists, we’re always researching. We always want to try something new, and we always want to investigate something new. We always have a tendency to make our lives difficult for ourselves, and not just do what we know how to do. But I think that’s part of the art form, because it’s contemporary dance by name. It’s a progressive art form, always progressive. Otherwise, it’s not contemporary. So, that’s just part of what we sign up for. I think it’s part of our interest to always investigate different ways of doing things.
There’s a piece we are currently touring called SURGE. It’s not a project that John and I have been working on together, but it’s something that TDC has done. It’s a live dance/ audio visual production mixing live vocals, dance, digital art and new electronic music by Ital Tek so kind of a new concept album but we have also made a version of it in VR. Now, that is a massively steep learning curve, learning how to create theatrical/ performance work in VR. Again, as I said, with this project, you learn best by just jumping in and trying. We will be touring the live version again soon as a double bill with another piece of work called SUB:VERSION which John will be dancing in. I guess there’s loads to talk about really.
voidspace:
How does the VR element play into the live performance?
Tom Dale:
The live performance is quite an immersive experience, because the character’s inside this animated environment, and their movement is completely choreographed along with the animated environment. So, there’s a huge amount of symbiosis between the art forms and that’s what’s really spectacular about it. Not least the fact that the performer is amazing as well and a great singer too so for this show we wrote two songs which she performs live as part of the piece so it’s a really multidimensional performance, she really lives and embodies that character.
The VR idea was another idea to reach new audiences, and audiences that we think don’t go to the kind of venues that we go to, and to create a new product that we can take on the road.
voidspace:
Is it the case that you put your headset on, and it takes you into the piece?
Tom Dale:
It’s a different manifestation of SURGE and the concepts behind it so it’s the same kind of piece and idea, but not the same as the live show at all. It’s different, but it has the same kind of starting points and same creative ideas, but manifests in a different way. You put the headset on and you go into a sort of lobby space. You acclimatise yourself to the environment, and the various rules of that environment. Then there are three different portals, that lead to three different experiences from that one space.
voidspace:
How does the element of agency work here? Do you choose the order in which you experience the pieces?
Tom Dale:
Yes, and you can interact with the characters, with the animation.
voidspace:
In what ways can you do that?
Tom Dale:
It’s mainly through your perspective. You’re right inside the performance, and you can walk about in there, or you can travel digitally, so you can watch it from any perspective. The dancers can move right through you, so you’re right inside the choreography. It’s completely different to watching it live as an audience member, when you’re always outside. You’re seeing things from different perspective. You can play with scale, you can play with the speed and intensity of movement. You can play with things that aren’t really possible in the real world. You can play with choreography and the limits of human movement in a different way in virtual reality. And I think that will get explored more and more as people get more proficient at it, and choreographers get in there and get their hands dirty, but it’s not easy to do.
voidspace:
Where I have seen VR used as part of a theatrical experience, sometimes I wonder if it can take you out of the experience rather than bringing you further in. And I know that some people would say that live performing arts such as theatre and dance should be about the real, about the person-to-person experience. What would you say to that?
Tom Dale:
I think you’re absolutely right saying that. And I don’t think that we are anywhere near as good at making work in virtual reality as we are in real life. But there’s the potential to create really new and amazing experiences that people have never had before and with amazing accessibility.
voidspace:
It’s never going to happen if no one ever tries it.
Tom Dale:
Exactly that. And as humans, when we see potential and we don’t explore it, then that’s not human nature, is it?
We can’t not go there, because it’s just part of life.
John Ross:
There’s something quite interesting, thinking about the experience. For example the way that the performance works in a Punchdrunk show, is that the audience doesn’t exist. You’re made to feel, as an audience member, like you can’t be seen. I’m imagining in the virtual reality world, it’s kind of almost like it’s both digitalized and real. You can almost touch the performer’s physical form, or rather you can’t, but your brain is still telling you that’s real. There’s something interesting about the two states coming together.
Tom Dale:
There’s no way it’s going to replace the live experience, though – hopefully!
John Ross:
Yeah, totally.
voidspace:
Going back to In:Scape AR, I’d love to hear a bit more about the modes of interactivity that you’re exploring in this piece.
Tom Dale:
It’s difficult to say at the moment, as we are really fresh in this.
Whether we can call this interactive depends where and how people access those photographs in the future. Whether we tour it as an exhibition into libraries, or into music festivals, or into art galleries or just as part of a live show. We don’t actually know how the public are going to access it yet, because we’re really just really early on in our process. We’re just going to make a few things quite quickly and then show them to a few people and then see what producers and people in the industry think the marketplace is for that kind of thing, in terms of interactivity for the audience, and how experimental we could get with that. We don’t know quite yet.
As we slowly start to reveal what this project is, and it becomes clear to us, then we can start to involve more of those kind of experts, and see what happens.
voidspace:
I suppose it’s a process of discovery, isn’t it?
Tom Dale:
We’re sort of in the lost space at the moment. We’re in the dark space. As it’s starting to reveal itself to us, more and more things will happen. But, yeah, we’re in that space right now.
John Ross:
We were out on location yesterday and we were already realising, just seeing some of the photographs and locations, that this would probably be better in more of an exhibitional space, rather than having it on your bedside table or your home wall. So there’s all those things that we need to consider and think about, and then what also goes inside it. It’s like we’ve just opened the lids, which is exciting.
voidspace:
What advice would you have for aspiring aspiring creators in interactive spaces?
John Ross:
It’s funny, because I always find that you’ve got to go by personal experience. Because the industry is continuously evolving and changing, so I think for me it’s being adaptive. It’s also finding a part of you which you enjoy and what you want to explore, and not being too kind of conformative. Or going, well, I’ll just do this and this and this and this, because I feel like if you do that, you lose yourself a little bit. At least, that’s what I felt at one point. I was just doing X, Y and Z and I’m wasn’t really fulfilling what I needed or wanted as an artist. So, I became frustrated at one point in my career until I decided what I wanted.
Tom Dale:
The advice I’ve always given myself is to try to do what you want. Try to be honest with yourself. Don’t try and do what you think other people want you to do, and have trust and belief in your conviction, and do what you want. Because you have so many ideas throughout your career, loads of them that you discount and think “Nah, that’s not possible“. Or that people won’t be into it, or they won’t get it. You have a lot of judgments about your own ideas and you don’t do a lot of them, and then ten years later you see someone else has done X, Y and Z and made a great success of it, and then you’re like, “Oh, yeah, that was possible.” So I think my advice is: try and trust yourself and do what you really want even if you’re not sure how others will perceive it. It’s really simple when you get down to that level. Make sure you’re doing what you want, otherwise you won’t want to do it and in art/ dance and performance you have to love it.
voidspace:
I think that’s so true. I think that applies in every field as well. Because I’m just thinking in my field, there are so many people who end up writing to fit what they think the journals are going to want or what they think. Is going to get them that fiction award. And you can end up with a lot of things that become quite similar and quite iterative. I think it’s really valuable to keep in touch with that idea of doing what you want as an artist.
Tom Dale:
I was just going to say, I think the art world is really difficult for a lot of artists, because a lot of the time you’re searching for a commission, and there’s a lot of producers with commissioning pots out there. It’s often to celebrate a town, or some industry or historical connection. You didn’t really get involved in art to do that. It’s very difficult for a lot of artists to be artists whilst they’re having to always search for these commissions to get by. That’s just really tough on the artist, because a lot of artists are having to make things they don’t necessarily really want to make, and it’s hard to figure out your practice that way if you’re using all your energy on these types of commission.
So, if we could support artists to be artists and to make what they want to make, that’s the direction that I would try to promote, rather than artists trying to win commissions from a local council who have already decided what the piece must be celebrating.
voidspace:
It’s brutal when you put it like that.
Tom Dale:
And obviously, as jobbing artists, we all have to do that I’m definitely not knocking anyone who does. We try and get the work, and we need the money, and that sustains our practice, and we can learn and get better at our craft by doing some of those projects. And obviously I’ve tried to get those many a time, but if we can support people to do what they want, then I think that’s better.
John Ross:
There was a piece of advice that was given to me and it’s really impacted how I live, how I make work and how I am in my relationships with the industry etc. It was when I got the Matthew Bourne Choreography Award, and I remember at the end of the showcase, I wasn’t happy, because I felt like I’d failed, for some weird reason. And Matt just said to me at the end: if you try and please everybody, you’re going to be very unhappy. So, do what makes you happy, and what you think is right. And when he said that it really hit home.
voidspace:
Isn’t that the truth? You’ve got to have your own voice, otherwise what’s the point? There are easier ways to make a lot of money.
John Ross:
And talk to people as well. Talking is great, collaborating is great. You’ll realise, after years of doing it, it’s quite a lonely space when you go solo. At least that’s what I felt. I reflected on this recently and realised that I’m loving spending a week with Tom, because it’s a shared experience.
That’s ultimately what we do in art, right? We share experiences. It may not be with another artist, but it’ll be with an audience.
Find out more about Tom Dale company here
SUB:VERSION and SURGE will be touring UK venues in Spring 2024. To keep up to date with listings for this tour and more, sign up to voidspace dispatches